Poem 6
THE SELF REFERENTIAL POEM (METAPOEM)
The following lists contain various possibilities; not every metapoem in each mode performs all, most, or even many of these particular explorations
One kind of self-referential poem or metapoem explores how poetry:
· functions as communication
· fails to function as communication
· functions as sound (i.e. music),
· reflects the poet’s conscious intentions
· reflects the poet’s unconscious intentions
· goes beyond or against the poet’s intentions
· contains properties or attributes
· does not contain particular properties or attributes
· influences the triangular relationship between itself, the poet, and the reader
· may be influenced in how it is placed in contexts by the triangular relationship between itself, the poet, and the reader
· is influenced by sociopolitical contexts
while the poem is happening.
A second kind of self-referential poem or metapoem explores how language:
· functions as communication
· fails to function as communication,
· functions as sound (i.e. music)
· reflects the user’s conscious intentions
· reflects the user’s unconscious intentions
· goes beyond or against the user’s intentions
· contains properties or attributes
· does not contain particular properties or attributes
· influences the triangular relationship between language, the one using it, and the one(s) hearing or reading it
· may be influenced in how it is placed in contexts by the triangular relationship between language, the one using it, and the one(s) hearing or reading it
· is influenced by sociopolitical contexts
while the language of the poem is happening.
A third kind of self-referential poem or metapoem explores how perception:
· functions
· fails to function
· is influenced by contexts like sound (i.e. music)
· reflects the perceiver’s conscious intentions and desires
· reflects the perceiver’s unconscious intentions and desires
· goes beyond or against the perceiver’s intentions and desires
· influences the triangular relationship between perception, the communicator of the perception, and the recipient of the communication
· may be influenced in how it is placed in contexts by the triangular relationship between perception, the communicator of the perception, and the recipient of the communication
· is influenced by sociopolitical contexts
while the poem is representing perceptions.
To watch my Youtube video on Creeley and Beckett’s self-referential poems, please click on this link:
Friday, May 15, 2020
PARODY
Everyone knows what a parody is; one of my favorite parody movie series is Scary Movie by the Wayans Brothers; it’s a parody of horror flicks.
Denise Duhamel in the narrative poem, “The Ugly Stepsister,” can be said to do a double parody: she combines a general sit-com atmosphere with a reversal of the Cinderella myth to make “Cindy” the “bad” one and her stepsisters neither good nor bad but economically and psychologically oppressed by a patriarchal situation. The Cinderella part is probably the major one of the two; it is a feminist counter-narrative to an old patriarchal story. You could say either that those stepsisters are appropriately ironic or mean-spirited, but they do a feminist critique of “Cindy’s” female docility and pseudo-passivity and identify it as a reinforcement of power relations in patriarchy and a problematic form of competition with other women to gain privileges granted by men. But the ending of the poem provides a wonderful twist that uses dramatic irony: the sisters themselves are capitalizing in their business on women’s physical insecurities, so in that sense, they are no better than Cindy in that they can do feminist critique but could also be the subject of such a critique. They claim a “happily ever after,” but it’s at Cindy’s expense. Ironically, the word “ugly” in the title does not refer to standards of female beauty but the idea that Cinderella has ugly behavior; in the original fairy tale, she is represented as beautiful and her stepsisters as, if not ugly, less attractive.
What, then, are the poetic techniques that make this poem of reversals work? Duhamel uses long lines of highly conversational free-verse with no stanza/strophe breaks—just the breathless onrush of a story that one of the sisters wants to blurt out. Musical variation in the long lines is achieved through enjambment and caesura (strong pauses in different places in the middle of a line). The poem relies heavily on precise images and allusion, and the allusions take the place of tropes like metaphor, except that there are many ironies, and irony is considered a trope. Allusion to modern products and names (such as Wall St.) is important because Duhamel wants to give the poem the feel of the late 20thcentury in the U.S., when the poem was written, rather than the fairytale atmosphere of the original tale. A parody tends to reproduce aspects of the original and create significant differences as well; in this case, the difference in the atmosphere of the time is important, as well as the reversal of protagonist/antagonist and ideology.
Kenneth Koch’s parody of William Carlos Williams’ poem embodies a different strategy than Duhamel’s: whereas she uses very little or perhaps no actual language or direct linguistic structuring of narrative from the object of her parody, Koch repeatedly uses the same verbal structure and changes various words with comic effect. He makes something that is already ironic and cute absurdly ironic and almost maniacal because of hyperbole (exaggeration).
These questions are from Olivia and the answers are from me:
ReplyDeleteIs there a reason as to why poets format their poems in a wave-like movement; is it for dramatic effect?
TF: Olivia, when you refer to a wave-like effect, technically, this means that there are varied indentations rather than a left-justified margin. Yes, poets sometimes create "waves" for dramatic effect when they make the visual element of the poem abstract, but other poets specifically make the shape of the poem relate to the thematic content. For example, if the poem is related to the ocean, the "wave" would reflect that, just as when the religious 17th century British poet George Herbert, an Anglican priest, wrote a poem called "The Altar," he formed it in the shape of an altar.
When it comes to finding words for my poem, I feel like it's bland that I should expand my vocabulary, is there any websites you would recommend for me to learn new words?
TF: It's a great thing for a poet or any writer to learn new words, because one of the central aspects of poetry is to enhance, deepen, and sharpen the use of language, not just to express a theme. Two weeks ago, I was a preliminary judge for a poetry book contest; I had to read nearly 100 manuscripts, and my reading partner and I had to choose 5 to send on to the final judge, so during that reading time, I encountered 5 words that I'd never, wrote them down, and looked them up in a dictionary. Now I want to keep them around and gradually use them. There are several things you can do:
1) Read an excerpt in a field that you don't know much about (in my case, physics or calculus), and copy down several strange, interesting, unfamiliar words and their definitions. Then work each of them into a poem--or sometimes you can use 2 of these new words in the same poem.
2) Do the following exercise: randomly open the page of a dictionary and put your finger on a word; if you know the word, keep putting your finger randomly on a word until you come up with 10 or 15 that you don't know. (Of course, look up the definition for each.) It may be impossible, if you have 10 words, to write a poem using all of them, surrounding them with words of your own choosing, but at least use 6 words, not knowing at first what the subject matter is but gradually reaching your sense of the poem's theme. (This is such a good exercise that the next time I teach this course--hopefully around 2023--I will use it as one of the 6 poem-assignments.)
3. Do an appropriative poem like the one some of you did but only choose lines in which there is a word whose meaning you didn't know before you encountered it and looked it up.
So write a parody poem? Can it be funny?
ReplyDeleteManuel, the parody poem is one of your 2 choices, the other being the self-referential poem. Yes, if you look at either Duhamel or Koch's poem, they are both funny. Of course, a parody can strive for laughs that make you think--just like some of the best comedians today.
DeleteI should add that if you do a parody poem, you will have one obstacle: you won't be able to reproduce the precise rhythmical effects of the original, because I have limited the meter to six possibilities (including syllable count and word count per line). Consider this obstacle an interesting challenge, as there will be a counterpoint between the meter and the other stylistic aspects of the parody. Then, in the revision of poem 6, you can perhaps transform the meter into something that directly parodies the original.
DeleteAll that being said, today I would rather discuss the self-referential poem and save the parody for Friday's class.
I'm still slightly confused about self-referential poetry. Does it need to create an acknowledgement between the poet, reader, and subject matter? In my understanding it's similar to a fourth wall break without being too direct
ReplyDelete-Erika
Your point about the fourth wall break is an excellent analogy! A self-referential poem can talk about what poetry as a medium DOES, whereas a regular poem that is NOT self-referential HIDES the properties of poetry. Another great example of self-referential poetry that also happens to be a parody (but not of a specific pre-text) is Charles Bernstein's "Thank You for Saying Thank You." You can google that poem and find it online.
DeleteAlthough Beckett "creates an acknowledgement between the poet, reader" and poem, not every self-referential poem has to do that. And as I said in the main section of the blog, "self-referential" can mean referring to the nature of perceiving while in the process of perceiving (as one writes a poem). So a self-referential poem can be about perception, not just poetry, if you want.
I just read Bernstein's poem and I can see how it creates a relationship between reader and poet. It's a great example of self-referential poetry in the way that I'm understanding it (fourth wall break).The opening line "This is a totally accessible poem" creates the expectation for the reader that they will not have to do any intellectualizing to understand the poem. Whether that expectation is valid or not is under the control of the poet so he still keeps himself at a distance from the reader like most poets do.
DeleteYes, exactly, Erika. And Bernstein ties accessibility to racism in some lines late in the poem--in this case, meaning perhaps that racist stereotyping is very easy to understand, while sometimes a view of race and social construction (that is not racist but descriptive) can be harder to comprehend but more valid (and of course morally correct).
DeleteOther members of the class may also benefit from taking a look at "Thank You for Saying Thank You" by googling it.
I really like This Poem by Tom Beckett because of the repetition and the vocabulary included. It's almost vivid.
ReplyDeleteThe poet
speaks to
the others
His words
filled with
wonder
Manuel, thanks for starting our self-referential collaborative poem!
DeleteAnd I'm glad you like Beckett's poem; I'll let him know.
You're welcome.
DeleteHi Professor Fink,
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed learning about self-referential poetry. From what I've learned and read, I understand self-referential poetry to be a genre of poetry that is all about expression perceptions on various things like poetry, language, or perception. This genre of poetry is more about being able to discern more about the poet and their conscious and unconscious intentions.
I enjoyed both Creeley and Beckett's poems.
For Creeley's poem, I like how he expressed the beauty of simplicity through his writing. I like how he was able to construct his poem where he gave seemingly insignificant words weight, power, and flexibility. In line with what he said in his poem, I feel he wrote so much but so little at the same time which in itself evokes a sense of awe. I feel inspired by Creeley's poem because since I write to inspire, I have recently developed a goal to write poetry that is tropological but simple at the same time so that people can understand and get the meaning of it.
Janessa, to have as your "goal to write poetry that is tropological but simple at the same time" is very interesting. It raises various questions that could even be posed poetically in a self-referential poem: Can one aim for simplicity when one sets out to write the first draft of a poem or would that paralyze the poet in her process? Should one aim for simplicity only in the revision process? What does simplicity really mean: does it refer to vocabulary, diction, structure, coherence of the poem's parts, thematic unity, lack of philosophical, political, sociological, or psychological complexity or at least assimilation of complexity into less complex units of thought? In the quest for simplicity, should one eliminate tropes that require significant interpretive effort? Or should one trust the reader to work through the interpretation of those tropes to reach the core of simplicity embodied in the poem's theme or tone?
DeleteWhat I mean by poetry that is tropological but simple at the same time is poetry that uses simpler diction and word choice to create tropes and images that will still convey the poem's theme or tone. I thought about the questions you mentioned. I think they are good to meditate on. I never thought about it that way until you mentioned it but, it could be a self-referential poem.
DeleteFor Beckett's poem,
ReplyDeleteI notice how you mentioned a specific term when you first began talking about his poem. You mentioned the term "double significance". What do you mean by that?
Also, what I liked about his poem was how he took it a step further from Creeley and again used simplistic, tropological language but, went deeper in doing so. For example, when he said the line:
"This poem
Is the body
In question",
I felt like he used simplistic and tropological language that helped us go deeper in discerning its meaning. The line: "In question" suggests that the poem is being examined and like you said, studied. Then, I also found it cool how he used "body" as a trope to express how a poem is an object or a thing. In addition to what you said, I feel this strophe could also be interpreted as Beckett saying that a poem is an object of study; it's something to be examined and investigated.
Janessa, "double significance" is basically a synonym for double meaning, though "significance" is somehow a more distinguished-sounding word than "meaning."
DeleteI agree that Beckett goes deeper than Creeley. And I like your notion of the "object of study"; that meaning is definitely there, and that is of course self-referential (metapedagogical--poetry about teaching and learning-- rather than metapoetic--poetry about poetry) to what we're doing in class with "This poem."
This poet is
ReplyDeleteAn Expression Carved.
Class is about to end, and so far, we only have 2 contributors to the poem. I will close contributions at 4 pm tomorrow. Those who are behind on class participation should strongly consider contributing.
ReplyDeleteBeckett's poem "This Poem" is the epitome of reflection. Symbolically, the poem starts strong with the two lines, "stares into /A mirror", I immediately perceive the poem as a sentient being, capable of thinking, rationalizing. I think the lines: plays/With/itself is interesting. On one hand, it can be seen as physically/bodily erotic or it can be taken as metaphorically masturbatory, as in writing in its self is a stroke of ego. For example, when poetry is written, it is exhausted, continually reformulated and rearranged; played with, in a sense. To me, this poem is a good example of self-referential poetry because the poem reflects on it's own existence, action and structural characteristics.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, I liked Creeley's poem "The Language" for the same reason I liked Becket's. Both poets utilize enjambment in a way that toys with the reader's imagination. We, as readers, begin to imagine what the poet is going to say before it is read, because of the short, abrupt, cut off lines. It really does replicate the nature of navel-gazing and reads more like a flowing, stream of consciousness. I liked the line, "fill fill" because that particular word resonates in my mind after reading. By writing a poem or say by using language, does one fill what's empty? Do words fill the air? Fill and corrupt the mind?
Question - Is Robert Creeley's poem categorically self-referential? Because it comes across more meditative than self-referential. Is it self-referential because he is using language to question the utility or effectiveness of language and in that way, it is ironic?
For the Collaborative Poem:
Graveyard Poet,
Excavates graves, impregnates
Mulch
(I'm not too sold on these lines but it is all I could think of, sorry.)
Many self-referential poems have a meditative dimension--perhaps most do. A poem can be both-- equally or to different extents. The categories of our assignments are not ontological but merely convenient foci. There is a lot of overlap. And yes, Creeley's questioning of the utility or effectiveness of language IN language is both ironic and indicative of a self-referential tendency.
DeleteBrianna, I actually think your lines work well. Now we have 3 collaborators.
DeleteIs it ever possible to have 2 hikus that can combine into one poem?
ReplyDelete- Olivia
DeleteOlivia, these are called linked haikus or haiku sequences, and various poets have done this since the haiku was first established as a form. That, in fact, is why I am including haiku as a possibility, because if a student only did 3 lines for poem 6, it would be much too short, right? So I'm expecting that anyone who chooses the haiku or any other form in tercets (three-line stanzas) will do at least 4 tercets or a bare minimum of 12 lines.
DeleteThis comment is from Aliyah:
ReplyDeleteWhen i think of parody i automatically think of comedy. Almost every parody I’ve watched, read, or listened to was full of comical outburst revolving around one or more similar/ different concepts. Upon reading “The Ugly Stepsister” i noticed the connection to Disney’s Cinderella. It was comical but also made me sit back like wow what if the Disney’s perception was all an illusion and “Cinderella” really behaved in the way Denise Duhamel portrays it. This by far has been one of the more interesting and appealing pieces of poetry this semester. This particular poem I feel ould also connect to poems having multiple point of views. There’s book, movies, plays etc on Cinderella always being the victim and only from her point of view making her into an angel, but this blows all of that out of the water. The poem was packed with irony and was told in more of a story format than a traditional stanza poem. I feel like writing a parody poem in free verse would be so much easier than trying to follow strict guileless and rules because it gives the author more of a creative stretch. I feel in writing poetry, at least for me, i get lost trying to follow all of the rules and it steers me away from coming out with a solid poem. In my head It’s constantly like you’ll get points off for this, you’ll get points off for that, do i have the correct amount of tropes, do i have the correct amount of lines, and when i don’t it’s like a race to try and full-fill al of those. So reading this was kind of like a relief, it was very creative but got to the point.
TF's reply: I appreciate your enthusiasm for Duhamel's poetry. You can find a lot of her humorous and serious feminist verse online. Her book QUEEN FOR A DAY: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS (U of Pittsburgh P, 2001) and her most recent book, SCALD (U of Pittsburgh P, 2018), one of her best, are probably in libraries--maybe as e-books since we can't GO to libraries.
Aliyah, I'll address your frustrations with the "rules." Perhaps I can clarify my objectives so that you and perhaps others will see the purpose of doing something that might seem unpleasant or destructive of creativity. First, if there were no rules and all assignments were just to submit a poem, your creativity would be limited to poetic techniques that you already know, and you wouldn't learn much other than what you already understand as constituting poetry; although you would benefit from the critiques of fellow students and your professor (if you chose to accept those critiques as valid), and therefore would learn something in the course from that, you would learn much less than you would if you had to struggle a bit to follow "rules" about ways of developing poetry that could enrich your imagination. Secondly, you shouldn't think of all the "rules" in advance but instead have maybe one rule loosely in your head while writing the poem in free verse (or even a paragraph!), without concern for number of tropes and images and whether a line is "good" or not--just writing freely and a lot--THEN, once you have no more to say, go back and gradually follow one guideline after another while revising the original draft. (This is NOT revision AFTER you get comments on the original draft.) If the process is strenuous, that's good for your education & development as a poet. Following the rules in the revision phase does not diminish but gives broader and more diverse options for creativity. It helps you go beyond limits; that may be uncomfortable, but it is creative. Thirdly, many successful poets in interviews and personal statements have talked about how they imposed rules ON THEMSELVES because they felt that free writing alone was not giving them an interesting, generative, fulfilling enough kind of poem; by following rules, they made breakthroughs, and frequently, from one poem to another, they changed the rules to keep the process fresh.
This reply is from Aliyah to my reply to her original comment:
DeleteBut my frustration isn’t with the rules itself. I actually appreciate them, I know they’re used as a guide and provides a sort of structure to the work itself. My problem is believing i am following the guidelines to then read it out loud and realize that I’m in fact not following it at all or to the best of my capabilities. I find myself circling around an idea for hours to then ditch it and try something new sometimes floating right back to my original idea. Honestly, without structure i wouldn’t even know where to begin the poem.
TF response: I think poets should be patient with themselves and assume that they'll overcome obstacles in the writing process sooner or later. In the meantime, if any of you get stuck or think that you are not understanding some of the guidelines, you should email me at any time, and I'll clarify the guidelines or present strategies for overcoming the difficulties within 24 hours of receipt of the email.
Hi Professor,
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed learning about parody. I found it to be a very unique and distinct poetic technique. From what I understand about what I learned a parody is, a parody is a way to introduce another artist, writer, or genre's work through a comical angle. You somewhat able to become a literary comedian by bringing comedy to an original work or genre.
When reading your analysis of Denise Duhamel's "The Ugly Stepsister", I found it very interesting how you brought out that irony is a trope. For example, I like how you pointed out that the word "ugly" in the title is referring to ugly behavior rather than ugly physical appearance as a way to portray the irony of Cinderella being known for beauty.
I also found it interesting how you mentioned that while Duhamel is doing a feminist critique on "Cindy's" female docility and pseudo-passivity to portray the reinforcement of patriarchal relations and the negative competition between women to gain male privileges within those relations, at the same time, she also ends the parody in a way that shows the sisters capitalizing off of another woman's suffering, thereby, showing how the abused has become/is becoming the abuser.
In the second paragraph, when discussing how poetic techniques make this reversal work, I notice that you said allusions take the place of tropes like metaphor. What did you mean by that?
Janessa, you have just coined an interesting new term: "Literary comedian." You should publish something with those words to stake your claim to it!
DeleteTropes like metaphor would often be plentiful in a poem that engages in feminist critique; however, in Duhamel's poem, there are not many tropes, but allusions perform the function of tropes because, for example, references to products that allow a brunette to become a blonde are not only about the setting in a particular time period, but they reflect and even, you might say, symbolize thematic content that is being critiqued. The allusion reminds us to question the idea that women (of whatever race--but in earlier times, white women) would want to change their hair color from brown, black, or red to blonde in line with the points you were making about a feminist perspective in the poem.
I love Duhamel's poem, it's very song-like to a degree.
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting, Manuel: what are some of the features that make it song-like?
DeleteParody of Take On Me (For people who played the Resident Evil 2 remake in this class)
ReplyDeleteWe're running away
I don't what
is chasing us
It seems pretty big
It smacked a guy ten
feet away
Just save all that ammo okay?
Run away (Run away)
Holy crap (Run away)
Zombie almost bit my
cheek
This seems good, but can you explain the specifics of the parody to an old person (me) so that I can really appreciate the wit?
DeleteIt's from a video game and a parody of Take On Me from Ah-Ha. The parody is talking about the experience of the game which is set in a zombie infested city called Raccoon City and it's referencing one of the enemies called Mr. X who you can't kill until the end.
DeleteI'm still not sure about whether or not I'm going to write a self-referential poem or a parody for poem#6 but, if I considered doing a parody, I would do a parody on the movie entitled: "Dead Poets Society". "Dead Poets Society" is a movie about an English teacher working at an all-boys preparatory school who uses methods to reach out to his students that are different from the school's traditions and high standards and his journey in doing so. The reason I would consider doing a parody of this movie is because I relate to its theme as well as the movie's protagonist, John Keating played by Robin Williams. Additionally, I feel this movie teaches us some valuable lessons that I think would be nice to point out to readers and others. Based on what I've learned from today's class, if I were to consider writing this parody, I would try to imitate Duhamel's style from her poem, "The Ugly Stepsisters" because I like her usage of irony as a trope as well as the theme she focuses on in that poem. I also like her way of using language in that poem to demonstrate the skill of making a serious truth palatable to its hearers, readers, and listeners through the implementation of comedy. I felt it showed intelligently insightful thought and inspiration on her part as a poet, a writer, and most of all, a human being.
ReplyDeleteA "Dead Poet's Society" parody might be workable, Janessa, if you can "translate" the main elements of the movie to elements that do NOT involve a boy's prep school, poetry, or the outrageous comic presence of Robin Williams.
DeleteAlso, in line with what you mentioned in your analysis of Duhamel's "The Ugly Stepsisters", I find it noteworthy how you were able to analyze the poem. As a pupil, I find your style of poetry analysis inspiring and something to imitate.
ReplyDeleteWhen you can, I'd like to know more from you about how you analyze poems the way you do. I'm interested in incorporating more poetry analysis in my journey as a poet and writer to enrich my poetic knowledge and insight.
I'm reluctant to talk about my bio or work, because it would probably bore almost everyone in the class. So my context as an analyst of poetry, etc. can be found if one googles "Thomas Fink" "poetry" and looks at a few entries. If you just google "Thomas Fink," you might be reading about the politician from Alaska or the mathematician from the Sorbonne, neither of which is me.
DeleteOh, and where are my manners: Janessa, thank you for the compliment!
DeleteIn Duhamel's "the Ugly Stepsister", there is a dynamic perspective shift. We are able to see a story told with aberrant sensibility, in a different tone and time period. This poem has more of an urban twist on a relatively 'posh' fairy-tale. I think parody is utilized quite well in this poem because it changes it but not by too much but by enough. It was interesting how Cinderella's personality is switched in this one, and I do like the scrutinizing of female competition in a social and political context. This poem reminds me so much of Anne Sexton's "Cinderella", they both give new meaning to the old trope, "Happily ever after" which I prefer. As per feminism, I would see it as "feminist" because in the end, the stepsisters are still a product of their society and environment, they tear Cinderella down as much as she bad mouths them. It's a lose-lose situation.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to write a parody it would probably be a 'do-over' of a song, since I find songwriting so lyrically superior and poetically evocative. I would probably rewrite a song from the band, Hole. Namely, their song "Pretty on the Inside". Per this context, I would call it "My Ugly, My Knife"
I would too use, irony, allusion, metaphor, symbolism, hyperbole and oxymoron. I love using oxymoron. The singer already takes about an ugliness but i would play it up a bit more, make it more sadistic, harmful.
I'll just parody a few lines--really cursorily.
ORIGINAL LYRICS:
Slutkiss girls
Won't you promise her smack?
Is she pretty on the inside?
Is she pretty from the back?
Molasses rot black strap
Is she ugly on the inside, baby?
Ugly, ugly from the back?
There is no power like my pretty power
My pretty power
My ugly
PARODY LYRICS:
Switchblade boys, kiss of life, love of dying
Won't they gut you in, bleed you more?
Is she rancid on the surface?
Is she pretty when she chokes?
There is no skewer like my skewer
Thorn of nudity, self-hate and manslaughter
There is no knife like my life
My ugly knife goes under
My ugly knife goes under
(it's pretty bad. don't judge me, I wrote it in 5 minutes)
Brianna, this is a very good start, though you told me not to judge. The first line of your parody might bear a stronger resemblance to the original. I'm wondering what the repetition of "goes under" signifies.
DeleteIt's an allusion to the trope "go under the knife", so as to symbolize plastic/cosmetic surgery.
DeleteI understood that allusion to cosmetic surgery but not how it's troping on the language of the original song, except to repeat "knife" as the original repeats "power." Perhaps you are intending a looser correspondence between each part of the original and the parody than I at first thought.
DeleteThis is from Diamond with my replies in between:
ReplyDeleteI honestly enjoy the the peom “The ugly step sister “ the way the poems flows and the mix of the a childhood story cinderella and using it in a different form to express different things . My only questions is a parody poems a mixer of a story or a song and using it in a modern way to example something?
TF: Diamond, it can take the shape of a story or a song or any other literary or cultural form, but it's not always taking something older and modernizing it; sometimes it's taking something modern and looking at in a new fun or finding humor in its seriousness or even dissing its social or political perspective. There's a lot of parody now that uses the man currently in the White House.
And what do you mean when you said” Duhamel uses long lines of highly conversational free-verse with no stanza/strophe breaks? Is the poem a run on bu still flows I am don’t really understand.
TF: Duhamel's poem is not in paragraph form, even though the lines are very long. The lines are not both left-justified and right-justified; on the right hand side, they end in different places. And in many of the poems we've seen (for example, Beckett's last time), there are stanza divisions, right? Duhamel and Prado's poems don't use them.
And last question is there a way you can use both Duhamel and Kenneth parody ?
TF: What you said below could surely work, but you'd have to simplify the plot to make it work as a poem of under 40 lines:
Diamond: The story/movie I would like to try to parody is my favorite movie “ The Grinch stole Christmas” by Dr. Seuss . I would like to us this movie as my parody but I love the concept of the moving of how one can go outs his way to make sure they other don’t get what they love and that’s makes him happy knowing that he took someone away from him but how at the end the one thing he hates he comes to love . The effect I would use is his childhood to shape my poem of love and hate using he was different from the whoville, falling in love at a young age but always being bullied and other things and how after all that love grew back a s sized back into his heart , so I guess it would be a mix of Duhmel style of parody with Kenneth Koch’s style parody... lol it’s sound like a lot
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe self-referential poem confuses me as to its minimums and maximums... what is absolutely needed for it to be a self referential poem and what can it NOT have in order to maintain that status? does every self referential poem have to acknowledge in a way that it is a poem? i.e "this poem" "this poet"? could it be a self referential poem and be something like "this dream"? is the pronoun "this" mandatory? how exactly is "The Language" by Robert Creeley a self-referential poem? because he locates language within the human body? i don't get it.
ReplyDeleteJason, every self-referential poem that is self-referential ABOUT ITS STATUS AS POETRY needs to acknowledge in a way that is a poem, but it doesn't have to use the word "poet" or "poem." However, a self-referential poem about perception must be talking about the nature of perception while it is perceiving something. A self-referential dream poem would be presenting a dream AND exposing it as a dream. Creeley's poem is self-referential ABOUT ITS STATUS AS LANGUAGE; it is using language to show the limitations of language to communicate. By the way, Malenie has some good ideas in her post apropos of your questions and points.
DeleteHello everyone,
ReplyDeleteAfter watching Prof. Fink's video on Creeley and Beckett’s self-referential poems, I believe I have a better understanding of what to do for Poem 6. After reading "The Language" I was a bit unsure whether he was speaking about love itself or being in love. However, after it was explained that Creeley was utilizing movement along with language and the use of certain words and cliches.. I understood the poem as a whole. Between Creeley and Beckett's self-referential poems, I think I enjoyed reading Beckett more. I loved that he gave a double meaning to what was written as well as the personification given to poetry itself. I think Beckett's poem gave me a better understanding of self-referential poetry because I understood what Professor Fink pointed out about creating a relationship between the reader, the poet, and the poem. In Beckett's poem: he jumps from the poem having life itself like "staring into a mirror" to the poem's helplessness when it comes to the reader. It's true that the reader holds a certain power because she/he can interpret language differently from what the poet intended. "This poem is an empty container" is a perfect example of that because when something is "empty" it shows some sort of vulnerability. Overall, I really enjoyed Beckett's play on personification intertwined with the reality of language in poetry.
As far as the second option for Poem 6 and parodies, I also enjoyed reading Denise Duhamel's "The Ugly Stepsisters". It was a very interesting take on the original story of Cinderella. I enjoyed the different perspective presented by Duhamel. I also thought it was very creative that the poem took place in modern Manhattan and not the typical "fairy-tale" setting. That being said, this poem reminded me a lot of another author I also enjoy. "Her Body and Other Parties" by Maria Machado is a collection of short stories that also sometimes play on the modernization of old fables.. Machado integrates feminine sexuality and taboos to old folklore stories and even gives them a sci-fi quality. I believe "The Ugly Stepsisters" does something similar in the sense of changing a well known story to illustrate another perspective.
I think we have an interesting set of choices for Poem 6. I don't think I've ever written either of these styles so I'm excited to see what I come up with. However, it might be a bit difficult because of the new rules added for meter but I'll try to see it as a challenge.
Malenie, the fact that Machado is doing something similar to what Duhamel is--and that earlier Brianna mentioned an earlier writer Anne Sexton's "Cinderella"-- indicates to me that this kind of re-visioning of patriarchal narratives from a feminist perspective has become a prominent mode since the literary arm of Second Wave feminism emerged in the late sixties and early seventies--around half a century ago.
DeleteRegarding the new rules for meter, I am developing a plan in my weekly announcement, which I'll send all of you today or tomorrow, about how to make that easier.
I loved the last part of the poem "Graveyard Poet, Excavates graves, impregnates
ReplyDeleteMulch" it gives so much image to the poem with so little words and i'm amazed on how one word can make such a bug image. - Olivia
Yes, Olivia, I agree that a single word can have a major impact!
DeleteHello Professor Fink,
ReplyDeleteI just read the two poems "Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams" by Kenneth Koch and "This Is Just To Say" by William Carlos Williams. Based on what I've read, I think the relationship between Williams' original poem and Kenneth Koch's parody is that they both touch on the theme of finances. For example, Williams' original poem talks about eating the plums from the icebox that were probably left for breakfast and Koch's parody talks about selling away the money saved up over the past ten years.
When I examine it, I wonder if Koch's parody wasn't written as a way to expand on the deeper meaning of Williams' original poem. I wonder if the word "plums" from Williams' original poem was used as a trope to symbolize money.
I think that Kenneth Koch's parody could work because he talks about the same things as Williams does. For example, the first stanza from Koch's parody says this:
"I chopped down the house that you had been saving to
live in next
summer.
I am sorry, but it was morning, and I had nothing to
do
and its wooden beams were so inviting".
Then the last stanza in Williams' original poem says this:
"Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold".
From these two stanzas, I feel the parody could work because not only does it share the same theme as Williams' original poem but, it also uses similar language which I feel helps readers to see even more the connection between his poem and Williams' original poem.
Janessa, though I've never heard of "plums" in Williams' poem considered a trope for money, I really like your idea; it's plausible and generative. And Koch does talk about the same things--they all fall under the category of human desire and ways of fulfilling it that might seem wrong, or in the case of chopping down someone's house, ABSURDLY wrong.
DeleteWhen you say write more about your process, can you explain what you mean when you say that?
ReplyDeleteI mean that if your process of composition of poem 6 is either interesting to relate to us or problematic, then this is a good place to talk about it. For example, let's say you are doing the self-referential poem by free-writing (with your topic loosely in mind) and looking out the window to get inspiration, but there's no one on the street, the weather is sunny but nothing seems to be happening and you can't find imagery from the scene that you can turn into tropes about poetry, so then you turn on the TV to a random program, get some ideas, then switch channels, get more ideas, and finally you can turn off the tube and let it flow.
DeleteAs a poet, my process of writing poetry involves me meditating on something I'd like to write about and then figuring out through which style of poetry I'd like to write about it in. Once I've figured out what I want to write about as well as what style of poetry I'd like to use, I then start drafting out my poems. While I'm writing, I try to think clearly about the images I want to convey as well as the words I should use to convey them. In order to do this, I look up words and their synonyms online to help me find different words I could use to express a particular feeling. From there on, I go with the word that feels right to me. I do so by placing the word in the sentence I am trying to write and then according to how it sounds in that sentence, that's how I choose the word I want to use. While choosing the words and images I want to write about, I make sure that these words and images will line up with the topic I'm writing about. After I've written to the point where I feel I've said all I wanted to, I stop writing and turn it in. Then, I make revisions according to the feedback I get on my poem. This is my writing process.
ReplyDeleteJanessa, your description of your process is interesting, and I think many would agree that the process can vary from poem to poem. When you say that meditation on the subject comes before stylistic decisions, I would suggest that, as an occasional experiment (not necessarily a common practice--but especially in poem 6, where the meter is very constrained), to meditate (through writing freely, without constraints) on the subject and put off conscious decisions about form/style until the revision phase. Likewise, looking up words and finding synonyms would impede the flow of a first draft in many cases, and perhaps should be left to revision. By revision, I mean revision that you do before getting feedback from another person, including myself.
DeleteMy writing process for the self-portrait poem option has gone something like this :
ReplyDelete1)Think of overall allusions and themes i plan to use - 2)relate it to the nature of self portrait and caricature - 3)write a few lines of how I see myself and how others perceive me - 4)circle my favorite lines - 5)circle my favorite words - 6)rearrange syllabic count and word count per line - change form - 7)translate some words into different languages to see how they sound - 8)use a thesaurus.
That's all I've done so far.
Later, I'm planning to try out all the format options concerning the numbers of word and syllables per line but, I think i like the style of the hay(na)kus so far; the choice with 1 word (1st line), 2 words (2nd line) and 3 words (3rd line), recurrently.
Brianna, your stage 1, which is comparable to what has been taught in English composition since the late 1970s, can be especially generative because you are using brainstorming or clustering rather than free-writing in sentences, and this "telegraphic" method will be the basis for stages 2 and 3 and beyond-- In other words, single words or brief phrases will naturally mushroom into longer phrases, clauses, sentences, and of course lines. In stage 5, it could also be "circle my favorite words, phrases, and lines," because stage 3 has a connection with 5. Stage 7 is especially innovative, and I am currently preparing to interview a poet whose new book is intricately multilingual for the interview zine Dichtung Yammer.
DeleteYes. In the future i hope to learn how to read and speak other languages. Being able to translate varied texts into different forms is a superpower, for sure.
DeleteAfter reading the poems, "Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams" by Kenneth Koch and "This Is Just To Say" by William Carlos Williams, I begun to compare and contrast, word choice, form, poetic weight and poet's intent.
ReplyDeleteFor me, in the poem, "This Is Just To Say" by William Carlos Williams, the word "icebox" and the line, ""so sweet and so cold" alluded to a frigidity or coldness in the nature of the speaker's relationship. Perhaps, it plays on the trope of "cold, black heart." For whatever reason, it struck me. The poem aches of domestic woes but there is an underlying bliss.
The word, "plums" reminds me or the color purple and thus the images of violence or domestic abuse? The line, "forgive me" evokes the trope that says, "forgive me, father for I have sinned." Is there an religiosity to the underbelly of the poem? A hierarchy in which the speaker revers this other person or was this line sarcastic, like he's sorry he's not sorry type thing?
Similarly, the word choice, "delicious" notes the speaker is unapologetic, as in the old trope. "revenge is a dish best served cold".
When I was comparing the poems, I started to look at how they reflected the same images just in different ways. In Koch's poem, Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams", he uses the line "I am sorry" in the opening stanza instead of "Forgive me". And although, he does use forgive me later in the poem. it doesn't have the same poetic resonance as in the poem, "This Is Just To Say". The line, "I am sorry" seems flaccid when held side-by-side in comparison.
All in all, the original holds more weight, for me. The lines and word choices are more decisive, effective and are more straightforward in its intentions. It's shorter and more concise. In the original, the speaker only apologizes once, but in the parody, the speaker apologizes 3x pver, to the point that it comes across as disingenuous and insincere.
The line "I simply do not know what I'm doing seems out of tone, and out of place as well. And i did not care for the exclamation point at the very end of the poem's coda. The parody is more jocular in nature, and subsequently the core tone is sawed off. Not to be a puritan but I like the original much better, and I hope my biases didn't kick in just because I read the original first.
<3 Brianna
Brianna, your reading of Wlliams' poem is very evocative. However, the reference to domestic violence that you find would not have been likely in the 1930s; the other observations seem more on target.
DeleteKenneth Koch was an original member of the so-called New York School of Poetry, along with Frank O'Hara, Barbara Guest, John Ashbery, and James Schuyler. The group had an affinity for jocular parody, but ESPECIALLY Koch--throughout his long career (1950ish - 2002. Best American Poetry editor David Lehman's article "Dr. Fun" champions Koch as a poetry of humor Koch, famous for teaching children and old people to express themselves through poetry, was a big fan of Dr. Williams, so this parody is also homage. He'd probably say that his parody was enhancing the humor of the original. Although I think that one of Koch's books especially balances humor and seriousness poignantly and aptly and also that his long poem "When the Sun Tries to Go On," is an early example of radical linguistic experimentation predating the "Language" poetry movement by twenty years, the common negative criticism of Koch's work--in keeping with what you're implying here--is that it is just funny and doesn't have much that is compelling to go with the humor. No one says that about Ashbery and O'Hara.
This question is from Aliyah:
ReplyDeleteRegarding poem 6- is the recurrent haiku and recurrent tanka’s only difference that instead of repeating the 5 and 7 syllabus in the haiku the tanka repeats Just the 7 for the last two lines? Must you start all over again once you do the last two 7 syllabus lines for the tanka? Ex- 5,7,5,7,7,5,7,5,7,7...
TF answer: Yes. So the stanzas look like this:
5
7
5
7
7
5
7
5
7
7
This is also from Aliyah:
ReplyDeleteKoch’s Poem was definitely making a mockery out of Williams poem. I believe Koch was giving absurd scenarios with the “I’m sorry” it happened because of this or that to make a fool out of William. William’s poem was simply eating fruit that belong to someone else, but Kotch went to the extreme with cutting down a house, breaking a leg etc and the sorry doesn’t make it better, it doesn’t bring back what was lot and quite frankly the excuse just mimics it more.
Question for discussion (May 27): What do you consider the conceptual basis for Manuel's poem?
ReplyDeleteBy conceptual basis, I mean the potential meaning behind the structure of repetition.
DeleteHi Professor Fink,
ReplyDeleteI just finished reading Manuel's poem. I find it very unique and interesting because I feel through his poem, he was able to express and transcend the frustration that has been felt by Alex Mahan's behavior. I feel it was unique because of the style it was written in. I found it unique how he was able to transcend the feeling of frustration through repetition. By using repetition, he brought the frustration to life where it could be felt by the person reading his poetry.
I also find the usage of repetition in his poem to be interesting because whenever I though of repetition in poetry, I only thought of it in terms of repeating a single phrase with the effect of deepening the phrase's meaning. Through reading this poem, I learned another way for the usage of repetition to serve it's purpose in poetry.
Another thing that I liked about his poem was the title. "Are You Coding, Son?" was a very good title because through it, he used tropological language to ask the question at the forefront of the frustration he is expressing through the poem which is a good way to get readers thinking about it's message.
For Manuel's poem, I thought about how when 'standard' language becomes receptive and thus meaningless, people rely on code to communicate. "Word" and "banned" connote to the forbidden and sometimes exclusivity of language. People often 'code switch" in conversation. It also reminds me of an academic essay I just read by bell hooks where she talks about using "the oppressor's language" to make way for new dialect, vernacular and 'broken' English. It can additionally be a reference to censorship, as in when certain words are banned, for an undisclosed reason, it becomes verboten. It has fascist undertones. The line, "the same lie" exudes the same meaning as Emily Dickinson's "Tell all the truth but tell it slant", like we all say the same things but articulate it in different perceivable forms.
ReplyDelete-Brianna
I appreciate the sophisticated analyses that both Janessa and Brianna are providing. Everyone will note that the hay(na)ku form is a very apt vehicle for the reiterative aspect of the poem.
DeleteFor your convenience in posting for the second half of class, I have moved the "Publishing Poetry" post to the newest post position.
ReplyDeleteI should clarify that, in our remaining time together today (and asynchronously, between now and Friday) some people will be more interested in responding to the question about your experience of revision ("Poem 6" post) and other people will ask questions and make comments after reading what I wrote about working on and submitting a first book of poetry ("Publishing poetry"). And some people may be interested in both.
DeleteThis is from Aliyah:
ReplyDeleteRegarding having revisions of poetry, i enjoyed it. Revisions and feed back helped me create some solid poems. I came into the class not knowing anything about poetry to being able to formulate well written poems. I’m no where near being able to publish my poems but i am very proud of it. Revisions let me expand my thinking and think outside of the box. One of my favorite poem “topic” from this class was looking at a piece of artwork and writing based on it. My knowledge of the use of vocabulary, steering away from cliches, and understanding how to write different types of poetry is better than ever. I appreciate this class. I’m glad i was able to take it.
TF reply: I'm very encouraged to hear this detailed reflection on your experience of the course.
If you like the ekphrastic exercise, it might be interesting to do an entire series of poems based on art works. Sharon Dolin's book Serious Pink (Marsh Hawk Press, 2002) is entirely based on the author's poetic reflections on the work of Howard Hodgkin, Richard Diebenkorn, and Joan Mitchell, all of whom can be considered abstract expressionist painters. Eileen Tabios, inventor of the hay(na)ku, has also written a lot of ekphrastic poems involving Clyfford Still, Anne Truitt, and others.
During this course, I found my experience of poetry revision to be positive because through those revisions, I was able to achieve my goal of bettering my craft and learning about different styles of poetry. Additionally, I also appreciate how the poetry revisions during my time in this course helped me to learn new poetry techniques as well. For example, even though I loved writing all my life, I never heard of the word "trope". I knew about poetry techniques such as pun, hyperbole, haiku, stanza, repetition, enjambment, metaphor, simile, alliteration, and assonance but, I never knew all of these terms would fall under the category of tropes. As a result of that, I learned something new.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason why my experience of poetry revision during my time in this course was positive is because through it, I learned how to be a better poet and a better writer. Revising my poetry helped me to learn more deeply that poetry is more effective when it focuses on showing more than telling. In line with that, I was able to expand my knowledge of how to make my poetry more powerful and effective through learning new ways to create imagery and evoke emotion through my poetry. As a result, I feel happy about taking this course because I definitely got to hone in my craft.
Lastly, through learning how to create more imagery and evoke more emotion in my poetry, I also gained a deeper understanding of language and what it can do for us not just as writers but, as human beings. For example, through revisions on my poem #3, "Agape", I learned that our choice in words can make the difference between whether our language is sharp or whether its dull. The revisions for that poem helped me to see that as a poet, I want to choose words that will sharpen the language and thereby, the affect of the poem.
As a result, I enjoyed my duration in this class.
Janessa, I'm very glad to read all of your thoughts about revision.
DeleteYes, pun, metaphor, simile, and hyperbole are tropes, but haiku and stanza are poetic forms, not tropes, and enjambment is a rhythmic effect, not a trope. Alliteration and assonance are not tropes; they are sonic (sound) effects.
I enjoyed revising my poetry in this class, as it is always good to have a second or more pair of eyes on your work. I was able to see my poems in a different light, with new perspective and I truly think it made my poems better and helped hone my writing skills. Additionally, I liked that the topic and format choices pushed me outside of my comfort zone and drove me to write with different forms and content than I would do while writing on my own.
ReplyDeleteX
My favorite poems to write was the Cultural Allusion poem and the Surreal Narrative poem. The cultural allusion poem goaded me into brushing up on some history and the surreal poem helped me exercise the internal forces of my imagination.The catalogue poem was hard for me because it was more of a list with fragmentary lines which is unlike to the rather long sentences I write, but it opened up possibilities for my future writing.
X
I personally liked the approach of the Professor's comments. Guiding without dominating the editing process, and allowing the student to re-frame their work on their own terms.
- Brianna
Brianna, it's really good that the cultural allusion poem helped you brush up on history. Sometimes poets forget and have to remind themselves that everything in writing a poem doesn't have to rely on staring down the blank page, but inspiration for a poem can catch you when you are curious and decide to study some aspect of history or biology or whatever.
DeleteIn retrospect, if I had given a choice of further instructions for the catalogue poem that involved specific content, that might have been easier.
I do enjoy revising my poem, sometimes I can get too indulgent and not realize my mistakes.
ReplyDeleteManuel, I think that the more experience that you have in revising on your own poems, the more you will finally be satisfied with your poems, and you will feel less indulgent after the first draft.
DeleteThis is from Diamond:
ReplyDelete. During this course and revision my own poems was at first hard because I wanted to make it better then the first time so I would over think but I realize the simple things can give a big meaning . Over time revision my own poems now make me think clearly about my poem and the type of message I what to send . Sometimes it was aggravating because I wouldn’t know how to change one thing from another thing but mean the same things
TF response: Yes, many poets have talked about how revision can be aggravating. In The Four Quartets, T.S. Eliot spoke of: "This intolerable wrestling with words and meanings." However, I think that if one gets beyond the frustrations and persists in revising, one reaches ultimately a sense of the joy of play with language or what the TV commentator Bill Moyers called "fooling with words."
If i chose option four am i limited to only those 3 sentences or I can add multiple sentences but just have to follow the word count 7,5,3? - Olivia
ReplyDeleteOlivia, you can have multiple sentences but must follow the word count.
Delete